Yuku free message boards

Interesting that Joe Rocket's rep suggested wearing a kevlar shirt under a mesh jacket. Having a double layer must help with abrasion resistence, but would it be too hot?

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Chernikoff
Sent: March 5, 2008 2:51 AM
To: questions@joerocket.com
Subject: Is your Joe Rocket Phoenix Mesh Jacket safe?

I just bought your Joe Rocket Phoenix Mesh Jacket, and then saw this web posting:
http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3469 that claims that your mesh jacket shredded on impact, and in fact the polyester melted and caused severe burns to the rider's body. Obviously I am concerned about my safety in this jacket now. Do you have any test data that shows that your Phoenix Mesh Jacket actually provides protection and at what speeds? I would greatly appreciate seeing anything you have - now I'm afraid to use this jacket that I've never even worn! Thanks. -Dan Chernikoff

From: Marc Bay
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 2:43 PM
To: 'Danielle Lauziere'; Dan Chernikoff
Subject: RE: Is your Joe Rocket Phoenix Mesh Jacket safe?

Hi Dan,

Thanks for contacting us about the Phoenix jacket. Your safety is important to us so if I do not fully address your question then please call me during office hours. I ask you to call as there is no definite answer to your question. The only thing definite is that if you crash you will get hurt. This is regardless of what you are wearing. What we do is design a product to fit a certain target for comfort and then build as much safety as we can into it. What we do is work hard to reduce the level of hurt.

Here is some info for you to consider though. We test our mesh jackets for material strength & seam strength against our competitor's similar garments. We do not advertise that we are better as we just don't make claims about safety. Safety is subjective.

In a crash a great deal of heat is generated. Thick layers of material like leather & cotton can insulate you from that heat. A good example is road racer Ben Spies. Before he signed with us he had a very high speed crash. From what I am told his leathers held together and yet he spent a great deal of time in a burn unit getting skin graphs. He was badly burned. The Phoenix jacket is largely made of air. There are big holes all through it. The heat that is generated in a crash is not held out very well by the air holes. I have seen crash cases where the shape of the mesh is visible on the skin. The air hole part of the shell does not insulate. Most of our materials melt at about 400ºF. On checking garments that have experienced this sort of heat we see the fibers start to separate and the shell disintegrates in some areas. I have never seen a case where the melted shell melts into the skin of a rider. Never. It does not liquefy. Some small sections do come apart.

The function of the mesh jacket is to hold the protective pads close to the body on a very hot day. The alternative is no jacket at all. The rider who crashed does not indicate any damage to his shoulders, elbows or back. These are the padded areas. We have countless riders send us e-mails thanking us for the protective qualities of our Phoenix jackets. When the jacket fits right the pads greatly reduce injury.

The most important thing you can do with your Phoenix jacket or any piece of ride gear is to make sure it fits right. Second off think about and practice your crash. Good riders instinctively roll away from the area of abrasion. They feel the garment wear & heat build and they roll. I had this experience my self wearing our low priced Atomic jacket last Sept. I rolled away from my side onto the pack pad and waited for the ride to stop. The poor guy in your link may have been stuck under a pizza delivery car, so he may not have had that choice.

So is your Phoenix safe? Yes it is safer then many of our competitors jackets that lack proper waist adjustment. The Phoenix jacket should not ride up in a crash. On the other hand, no it is not safe. It is not as safe as a well fitted leather jacket. At Joe Rocket we feel that the safest jacket is the one you will wear, and when it is over 80º your leather jacket may well be still hanging in the closet.

Marc Bay
Product Manager
JoeRocket
5100 Ure st.
Old Castle Ont.
Canada
N0R 1L0

And then later he sent this addition:

From: Marc Bay
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 6:46 PM
To: Dan Chernikoff
Subject: RE: Is your Joe Rocket Phoenix Mesh Jacket safe?

Hi Dan,

In the area of safety I neglected to mention that a Kevlar shirt would be a great addition to a Phoenix riding jkt. We made prototypes a few years ago and then decided that the cost was much too high for us to bring to market. We are a jacket company and are not structured to market knit goods. I've not tried a Draggin Jeans brand Kevlar shirt but I assume they are a good product. The Kevlar is a great heat barrier because like Nomax it is an Aramid fiber.

Best regards,

Marc Bay

Stan,

There's a lot of truth to the statement that the best motorcycle protection is the one that you will wear. Nobody can wear something that is so hot that it makes them pass-out and even if they are not quite that bad off; they are only as bad off as being distracted from the heat, that is still plenty not-good. I am a little put-off by the damage to my First Gear Mesh-Tex 1.0 jacket from a crash that had little to no sliding. It rode-up and I got some road rash near my kidney, plus it tore in multiple spots, none of which was a seam.

At the moment I am favoring the Motoport Ultra II Air Mesh Kevlar Jacket. What appeals to me about is the high melting point, the high tear resistent material and seams providing serious protection, the great air flow, the custom fit, the 7 year warrenty and the free repair or replacement if you have an accident. Detriments are the price which is almost as high as the melting point and the 3 month backlog. I need something now. I may give BMW's new mesh jacket another look. It's in about the same price range. I think the local BMW/Ducati/Triumph dealer has some of BMW's mesh apparel in stock. I may have to go over there today and check it out.

Stan,

I would agree with you that a mesh jacket is a whole lot better than bare skin or a T-shirt. There are many that have reported coming through a 'get-off' unscathed while wearing a mesh jackets and pants, even some that say they slid 25 or 30 feet. What is baffling to me is how some who slid lost no skin while others with seemingly the same length slides have either had the seams come apart dislodging the protective foam and/or have had the mesh material wear through and in both cases it has resulted in some nasty road rash.

My mesh jacket rode up because it I was not wearing jacket and pants that had compatible zippers. The First Gear mesh jacket did not have the same size zipper as the Joe Rocket mesh pants. Now I see that that can be very important as is keeping the sleeves tightly cinched.

I am also coming to believe if you get a mesh jacket do what you did and make sure large portions of it are not mesh. I had been favoring the First Gear 3/4's length Torrent mesh jacket over the Olympia 3/4's length Bushwacker mesh jacket because the Torrent is all mesh instead of just mesh panels on the front of the arms, the chest and the abdomin (perhaps the back) like the Bushwacker is. Now if I were to compare the two, I would definitely take the one that has stronger, more abrasion-resistent, non-mesh 500 Cordura material along the sides and the backs of the arms. I was looking at Fieldsheer mesh jackets in a motorcycle shop today. I saw their less expensive mesh jackets were all polyester mesh except for some panels at the shoulders and elbows, but their more expensive mesh jackets had high denier nylon along the sides as well as at the shoulders and elbows.

You are correct, with the way I ride I need all the protection I can get. BMW's gear, though better than standard polyester mesh, does not include any 3/4's length jackets. I am still favoring Motoport's expensive kevlar mesh jacket. I sent an e-mail to Motoport asking them to send me pictures of the jacket colors they have. I probably will order one within a week. I will probably also order a Draggin Jeans kevlar shirt to wear under my damaged First Gear Mesh-Tex 1.0 jacket until about 3 months from now when my custom Ultra II Kevlar Air Mesh Jacket is completed and shipped.

BTW, following are pictures of my damaged First Gear mesh jacket. In the pictures the scrapes on the right sleeve and the top of the back do not look like much, but up close it looks to me like the jacket would rip-apart the next time it hits the pavement. The 1/2" diameter hole in the lower right back is the worst damage the jacket sustained in what seemed to me to be a splat type of accident. I do not remember bouncing or sliding although I may have done a little of both.

Shown below are a couple of 1" to 2" long scratches on the front of the right sleeve.

There are also mulitple scratches, impending tears on the upper back, as shown in the following picture.


A 1/2" diameter hole in the lower right of the back is the worst of it.

Tony,

Looks like Motoport's Kevlar blend, Keprotec, is partly Dynafil. Apparently Kelvar by itself, is somewhat brittle. It does not give like nylon, thus it has poor abrasion resistance and also tears before it stretches much, as least according to what I have been reading about 100% Kevlar products. On the other hand, Motoport's Keprotec is racing sanctioned and time-tested in some fairly long slides. Sounds like the blend of Kevlar, Dynafil, Cordura and Polyurethane work well together. I remember reading that Aerostich did not go with Kevlar because it was hard to work with and that adding any other fibers to Kevlar just degraded it to the point you might as well only use those other fibres. It does not appear that that thought has held up over time.

http://www.schoeller-textiles.com/pdf/protection_keprotec_e.pdf

http://www.ixion.org.uk/faq/kevlar.html

Tony,

There seems to be a lot of conflicting information regarding Kevlar and Kevlar-blended fabrics, but the bottom-line seems to be that despite what Aerostich says about Kelvar-blended fabric, Keprotec is the only non-leather sanctioned for race suits and despite what some have said about pure Kevlar, there are gloves used in the sheet metal and glass forming industries made of 100% Kevlar that are used to prevent both cuts and burns. It seems to me that both Kevlar and Keprotec are abrasion resistant, heat resistant and very tough to cut. I think I will order a Draggin Jeans 100% Kevlar shirt to wear under my somewhat damaged First Gear Mesh-Tex 1.0 jacket until my Motoport Ultra II Air Mesh Kevlar jacket arrives.

I have not ordered the Motoport Mesh jacket yet. I have to work out all the options first. Like ordering from Corbin, it does not cost anymore for anything custom when you order from Motoport so I want to make sure I have the color scheme as well as the number of pockets and their placement figured out before I place the order.

Are you thinking of ordering a Motoport jacket or are you thinking of wearing a kevlar shirt under your current First Gear mesh jacket?